How to write copy that sells

TRANSCRIPT
00:00:00:00 – 00:00:26:11
Robert Bly
Don’t just read business books. Read everything. If you’re a copywriter and you don’t read fiction, you’re missing the boat because fiction tells you how people think and feel and speak. So I am I am constantly reading. I’m constantly writing. And then those are the major ones I write every day. Read all the time. And the third one is study copywriting.

00:00:26:13 – 00:00:45:10
Robert Bly
Become a student of coffee, right? I don’t mean just reading copy you get, but take a course today. That’s the one advantage people really do have today. The, the there’s so much more education out there, more easily accessible.

00:00:45:12 – 00:01:08:23
Alex C
Hey, this is Alex Cleanthous from the Growth Manifesto podcast. And today we’re talking with Bob Bly. He wrote the book on copywriting called The Copywriters Handbook, and it’s one of the best copywriters in history. This is such a great episode for people who want to understand why copywriting is so important and how to think about copywriting. And if you think about it, AI copywriting is at the core of everything that we do these days as marketers.

00:01:09:00 – 00:01:36:22
Alex C
You know, we need to really become great at putting together a combination of words that will cause people to take action on a particular offer. I first got into copywriting in the late 1990s because of a guy called Jay Abraham, and when I first got into it, and when I first started to really understand the power of copywriting as a skill, I invested hundreds and thousands of hours into perfecting my craft.

00:01:36:23 – 00:01:56:11
Alex C
If you enjoy the content that we produce, then please support us by hitting that subscribe button, hitting the like button, and sharing this episode. The more people that this can get in front of, the happier that we will be. And the more excited either we’re going to be to continue to produce episodes like this. I really hope that you enjoyed this episode and I’ll catch you on the inside.

00:01:56:13 – 00:02:00:04
Alex C
Let me start with this question. Yes. What is copywriting?

00:02:00:06 – 00:02:14:17
Robert Bly
Well, copywriting is writing material that’s either print, digital broadcast, audio that either sells or help sell a product or service.

00:02:14:19 – 00:02:38:13
Alex C
As I learned about copywriting early on in my career, I’ve talked to myself. I need to make some money. And I started all the learning I learned how to cut. I started in sales, and then I learned some marketing. And then. But it was only at the time that I got to copywriting that I truly understood how to market and how to sell people, because the power of taking some words, right?

00:02:38:15 – 00:03:06:23
Alex C
Combination of words can get people to take action en masse. Right? And so I thought that was really the exciting thing about copywriting was that at the core of every piece of the marketing and, sales and communication is words. And I guess if somebody actually understands how to construct those words in a certain way, in a way that can enforce action, yeah, they can get people just to take action.

00:03:06:23 – 00:03:21:24
Alex C
And I thought that was a really interesting perspective. Right. Because everybody sincerely kind of thinks of all of the tactics around kind of marketing, but they don’t really think about the words as much as they should. So how important are the words from your perspective?

00:03:22:01 – 00:03:50:01
Robert Bly
We have been believed and and we think we’ve shown we and many people of my ilk. I’m a I’m a senior. And so I’ve been doing this for almost half a century for 45 years. And, we always believed that the words were an extremely important element. We didn’t say copy was the most important element when we first started before the digital, our primary communication medium, although there were others, was direct mail.

00:03:50:03 – 00:04:15:02
Robert Bly
So is copy the most important part of direct mail? It’s very important. But also important was the list, which means targeting the audience and the product and the offer. So I would say the most important elements are what you’re selling, who you’re selling it to, what the offer is, and then how you’re reaching them. And also the copy, the words.

00:04:15:04 – 00:04:32:14
Robert Bly
What we used to say, though, in direct mail with people who say, well, the list is more important. And we say, yeah, but it’s easy enough to find the right list. Takes a little trial and error, but once you do and you know what it is, boom, you’re done. You know the list. But therefore the leverage was always in the copyright.

00:04:32:18 – 00:04:48:23
Robert Bly
You can always use different copy to boost your gross response rate, ROI, whatever metric you were measuring. So in that sense, you could argue it’s the most important, but it certainly is is extremely important and remains so. Okay.

00:04:49:00 – 00:05:04:17
Alex C
Yeah. Okay. So let me separate out the things that I just heard you say. So let’s start with the audience. Right. How do you identify a good audience to construct a copy around? How do you identify the audience? First?

00:05:04:19 – 00:05:10:20
Robert Bly
There’s different ways to say that. Do you know who you know? You probably do. Do you know the name Gary Halbert?

00:05:10:22 – 00:05:13:19
Alex C
Of course. Like he’s a great. Oh, he’s a legend.

00:05:13:21 – 00:05:39:06
Robert Bly
He said the secret to success in marketing is the audience. And by that he meant don’t market to the masses, market to the starving crowds, the people who are begging, dying, pleading, desperate to, what you are offering. So the, you know, the for example, in the back in the day, I when I was a direct, primarily direct mail copywriter, I occasionally get a call like this.

00:05:39:06 – 00:05:58:11
Robert Bly
Hey, we need someone to write a mailing to sell our, let’s say it was Omaha Steaks, our new gourmet steaks. And here’s our idea. We want you to write a letter that we’re going to send to people to convince them that steak is good and you should eat it, and ours is the best. No, you don’t do that.

00:05:58:13 – 00:06:24:22
Robert Bly
You know, I said, what are we going to rent the Vegetarian Times subscriber list and say, you should be eating meat. You want to rent the meat? You know, the barbecue magazine list you want to sell to people who already want what you’re selling, and therefore just convince them that yours is better than your competition’s. So you, you, you, your audience is people who already want, need, desire.

00:06:24:24 – 00:06:28:24
Robert Bly
What you’re selling, not to convince them to do it.

00:06:29:01 – 00:06:47:10
Alex C
So it’s the not the convincing them to do it. Although I did see a few of I did see a few of the Gary Halbert examples where I like the sales. That is that kind of he did all the way back when, and he had a strong skill of selling people who didn’t even kind of know that they had a problem until he agitated the problem.

00:06:47:10 – 00:07:05:18
Alex C
Right. So part one is that, so if you find a starving audience, that’s fantastic. Right? But the other one is that he manages to find a pain point that you didn’t know, so he can introduce an idea to someone who wasn’t thinking about it and then get them to really want it, and then get them to take action on that thing because of the offer.

00:07:05:18 – 00:07:22:06
Alex C
Right. So how does that adapt a little bit? Right. Because yes, it’s good to go after a starving kind of crowd. But there’s also this thing where, you can introduce an idea and create the desire and make them a starving crowd, almost like I saw some examples of that.

00:07:22:08 – 00:07:26:11
Robert Bly
Did you personally? I’m just asking, did you know him and have a relationship with him at all?

00:07:26:11 – 00:07:28:14
Alex C
Not personally, no, but I.

00:07:28:16 – 00:07:28:22
Robert Bly
Look at.

00:07:28:22 – 00:07:31:12
Alex C
All of his content. All right, I know.

00:07:31:14 – 00:07:52:18
Robert Bly
Yeah, I know him well, but I didn’t know him. And I asked him a similar question. He said, you want to sell to people who are starving? Well, you’re describing it simply. You have to make them aware that they are starving. You have to put one. And the term I use for that, and I think maybe it was his term problem, agitation.

00:07:52:20 – 00:07:57:04
Robert Bly
You know, poking, you know, poking the needle into the sauce, so to speak.

00:07:57:06 – 00:08:13:14
Alex C
To ask what do you think are the strongest, the triggers that have the biggest impact in making somebody take action? That’s what is about the hot buttons or like the areas that someone’s like, oh, you got me. Yeah. And I didn’t even know that I had it. Yeah. But yeah.

00:08:13:17 – 00:08:25:03
Robert Bly
There are there are many lists available and I can, you know, point your audience to links of them and sources. But you did you know also the copywriter Kershaw. Gordon. Louis.

00:08:25:05 – 00:08:26:08
Alex C
I didn’t know that guy.

00:08:26:10 – 00:08:53:14
Robert Bly
Yes. So he’s a friend, sort of. Albert’s contemporary, age wise. And he said his was the easiest to remember. He felt that the four big triggers were greed, guilt, fear, and exclusivity. And I think that’s a there are many lists, but that’s an easy to remember. Good. Starting with greed, guilt, fear and exclusivity. I would say there are many beyond that.

00:08:53:16 – 00:08:57:17
Robert Bly
But that was that’s a good that’s the that’s probably the top four.

00:08:57:19 – 00:09:11:19
Alex C
That would take those four triggers and then and then do it overlay. The Eugene Schwartz. What’s the the sophistication of the market, how as.

00:09:11:22 – 00:09:12:13
Robert Bly
Absolute.

00:09:12:18 – 00:09:26:12
Alex C
Solution aware or problem aware and so on. And so we’re basically combining the levels of, of kind of maturation of like a market and the four kind of, pain points. Is that right?

00:09:26:14 – 00:09:45:09
Robert Bly
Yes. It’s it’s the simplest way to describe Schwartz is, is knowing your audience. And he was the first to point out you have to know where they are today. They use this term that I don’t like the buying journey, the customer journey. But that’s what that’s what he was. You know, every today they have all these new bright, shiny objects.

00:09:45:09 – 00:10:12:15
Robert Bly
They’re not new. They just give them fancy names. So Eugene Schwartz, they get to take them where they are. So if I’m writing a, let’s say, an ad for a piece of software that I did recently that prevents a problem, with, with large computer systems, first thing I ask is the client, do they already know that they have this problem going in in their data center, or is it going on without them being aware?

00:10:12:15 – 00:10:33:06
Robert Bly
And then we have to make them aware. Where are they in that if they already know they have it? Are they already searching for a solution? Do they know there’s a solution? Do they know there are many solutions? And therefore what we have to do is say they they’ve heard of us. They’ve heard of A, they’ve heard of B, do we have to say, this is why you need us versus the other ones?

00:10:33:06 – 00:10:55:17
Robert Bly
So Schwartz is good. I’ve always meant to this is in is I know this is in breakthrough advertising lays this out which is a great book and I always meant to and maybe I did at some point, but I don’t have it handy. I should make it prominent. I should put together a sort of a pyramid or chart that shows the levels of awareness Eugene Schwartz has levels of awareness, you know, and.

00:10:55:18 – 00:10:58:23
Alex C
Levels of awareness. Yeah, that’s what it’s called, isn’t it? Yeah, it’s called the levels of awareness.

00:10:59:04 – 00:11:20:16
Robert Bly
It is what he called it. And it’s the lowest level is I think, you have a problem, but you don’t know you have a problem. The other the next up is you have a problem, but you but you don’t know how bad it is. The other next level, I forget. I’m not quoting it exactly. Is you have a problem.

00:11:20:18 – 00:11:35:08
Robert Bly
And you know, that it’s bad, but you, don’t know that it can be solved. And it goes up from there now. I mean, I know for myself I’m going to put this together, and when I do it, I’ll have your email. I’ll send it to you, because I got to put this up on my site.

00:11:35:08 – 00:11:45:20
Robert Bly
It’s a very good thing. Or I’ll make a video of it. It’s a, you know, people, it’s forgotten today. And the reason it’s forgotten is Greg, through advertising, which is a great book, is a difficult book to read versus.

00:11:45:22 – 00:11:50:21
Alex C
I love that book. I thought it was the best book. I think I loved it. 310 three time.

00:11:50:23 – 00:11:58:23
Robert Bly
I think it’s a great book when most people find it very difficult. And, you know, it’s not as simplistic as some of the other ones and they, they don’t grasp it.

00:11:59:00 – 00:12:09:00
Alex C
Well, there’s two books I would recommend. I would recommend that book from Eugene Schwartz, and I would recommend kind of this book. Probably, yes. The Copywriters handbook, I.

00:12:09:02 – 00:12:10:12
Robert Bly
Think that.

00:12:10:14 – 00:12:25:16
Alex C
This is a really good book. Right. So this is like a really good book to give you basically all the concepts of copywriting, right? In kind of a single kind of area. I quite like that because it was a summary of all of the education I had ever done. And I was like, oh, this is a really good book, and this is a book like this for my team.

00:12:25:18 – 00:13:02:22
Alex C
So I get them, the two of them actually, to kind of get them, the Eugene Schwartz book as well, because when you understand the levels of awareness, that’s the most important thing before you start to write copy. Right. And that applies across can all of, the meta ads that we write, the Google ads that we write, the levels of awareness is such an impactful kind of concept to even understand the hook, which you have to, start with, or the education or the hurdle that they have to get past, to basically say, oh yeah, I’m interested in this product.

00:13:02:22 – 00:13:05:01
Alex C
So I think it’s a great.

00:13:05:03 – 00:13:05:23
Robert Bly
Start.

00:13:06:00 – 00:13:07:21
Alex C
To understanding the market.

00:13:07:23 – 00:13:36:02
Robert Bly
And what it is and what it addresses. There’s an expression you you’ve probably heard it, I think Rosser Reeves said at first Clayton said it. You have to enter into into the prospect’s mine and engage him with the conversation he’s already having with himself about his problem and your product, which is levels of awareness. And, you know, he he said the conversation that he’s already having in his own mind towards quantified it more so with the, you know, dividing the levels and defining them.

00:13:36:04 – 00:13:53:10
Alex C
So understanding the audience is like critically important to be able to craft copy that talks to what their problem is. Right. And we spoke about the levels of awareness. What are the other things that you do to understand an audience before you start the copywriting kind of process itself?

00:13:53:12 – 00:13:55:20
Robert Bly
There’s to understand the audience.

00:13:55:22 – 00:14:15:16
Alex C
Yes, exactly. How do you understand the audience? I say, for example, kind of, that example which you gave earlier. Right. That sounds very technical. Actually understanding about kind of the security of data centers. Right. Like, I’m sure that wasn’t kind of the thing, what you learned kind of 30 years ago. Right. So how do you get into the mind of the consumer to understand how to write copy?

00:14:15:18 – 00:14:41:23
Robert Bly
You’re not going to like my answer. I cheat, I write copy basically in select areas. So I’m not reinventing the wheel each time. I do a lot of, for example, the areas that I niche or specialize in, I do a ton of investment and financial services, copy stock market advisories, stock market newsletters, options trading courses, and services.

00:14:42:00 – 00:15:07:12
Robert Bly
So if you work in the same areas and another area that I do a lot of work in and I’m not the only one is alternative health dietary supplements. So when you work in a few areas, you live in them and you get to know them over time. So you know what people are reading, what they’re you know, what they’re interested in, what their what their awareness is, what their concerns are.

00:15:07:14 – 00:15:10:23
Robert Bly
I mean, if you want to get deeper, there’s ways to do time dive more deep.

00:15:10:23 – 00:15:33:16
Alex C
I would you recommend copywriters or marketers who don’t understand an area and who now need to write copy for the meta ads, or for an e-commerce site, or for, a personal trainer or for whoever it is. Right. What advice, would you give them to learn about their audience a bit more?

00:15:33:18 – 00:15:39:12
Robert Bly
There’s lots of different answers, but and I keep asking you, do you know this and that? You know who Marc Ford is from Agora Publishing?

00:15:39:14 – 00:15:42:13
Alex C
I know Agora Publishing. Yeah. I don’t know that.

00:15:42:15 – 00:16:02:08
Robert Bly
Yeah. So Marc Ford is and Bill Bonner of the Kings there. So Marc has been teaching this for years. He and Bill are are tops in the field. And people will say, well, how do you know what your prospect they sell financial investment newsletters, stock market newsletters. Well how do you know what what people, are thinking.

00:16:02:10 – 00:16:24:17
Robert Bly
He says buy your competitors products if you’re going to work in financial newsletters, but subscribe to some of them, pay for them. You will get. Then it was paper, direct mail. Now it’s mostly digital. You’ll get endless multiple promotions and you study them like they’re like they’re your graduate level school. Before the internet, we would study direct mail.

00:16:24:19 – 00:16:52:24
Robert Bly
And then we got from these companies and, we call that your your marketing university and mailbox. You study what’s called and you’ve heard this term, you study the controls, you look at what’s working now and that’s the best way. And what you do when you’re looking at all these things in your inbox postal box email. What what you do is, you look at the ones that you’re getting repeatedly because they are the ones that are working.

00:16:53:04 – 00:17:07:24
Robert Bly
If they were failing, they wouldn’t keep emailing them or mailing them, and they become they are what we call controls, repeated promotions. And those are the ones you study and you know, they’re more valuable than the gold in Fort Knox. To you as a marketer.

00:17:08:01 – 00:17:24:06
Alex C
And I would say like, like another kind of, a quick suggestion here just for the audience is if you go into the meta ads library and if you look at, the oldest ads, the oldest ads that are running are the winners. Yeah. So they’re the ones that have been successful over time. And that’s why they’re still live.

00:17:24:06 – 00:17:36:13
Alex C
Right? The new ones be careful of because they might look nice, but they haven’t confirmed that they can beat the control yet. Yes. Meta ads kind of library. Having a look at kind of some of the older ads is a great way to say some of the winners.

00:17:36:14 – 00:17:42:04
Robert Bly
You are a 100% correct in that. I couldn’t have said it better. No need to elaborate. You’re right.

00:17:42:06 – 00:18:10:11
Alex C
Thank you so much. How important are customer interviews? It’s like that thing that Henry Ford said, right? I mean, if I ask the consumer exactly what they want, they would want kind of faster horses, right? But instead. So he made it kind of the automobile. So how much is it? Understand seeing the customer, but also predicting the thing that the customer actually kind of would want if they understood the offer or, you know.

00:18:10:13 – 00:18:32:01
Robert Bly
Yeah, there are there are multiple answers to that. One of them I’ll give you is this if you’re going to work heavily in a particular niche, your market become part of that market. For example, if you, if you’re going to be a, a, a copywriter in the, oh, let me pick a let me pick a good example.

00:18:32:07 – 00:18:53:24
Robert Bly
If you’re going to become a copywriter in the computer market. At one point, I, I started out writing, I’m an engineer by education. I’m a chemical engineer, and my most of my clients were chemical companies. But when the computers came up, I said, hey, it’s more the business is shifted toward it. How am I going to learn it?

00:18:54:01 – 00:19:25:02
Robert Bly
I became a certified I.T professional. I participated in my market. I went to, I went to software trade shows and computer trade shows. I joined, you know, computer, a couple of computer associations and went to the meetings so you can become an active participant in the market. And that’s that’s one way to, you know, to really dive deeper into into what you’re doing now in terms of talking to customers, what what I hear this is interesting.

00:19:25:07 – 00:19:46:24
Robert Bly
People that we said are our focus groups. You know, what a focus group is, of course, right. Our focus groups worthwhile. And people used to say, no, they aren’t, because, you know, or yes, they are. And focus groups are not useful at telling you whether someone’s going to buy a product. And I’ll tell you why, I once I went to a focus group as a, as a to participate.

00:19:47:01 – 00:20:01:13
Robert Bly
They didn’t know I was in advertising. They invited me, said, this sounds like fun. So I went and they it was for a luxury car and it was a bunch of people in a room and they said they put up the car and it’s really expensive car. And they said to us, would you buy that car? So the guy next to me goes, of course I would.

00:20:01:13 – 00:20:14:13
Robert Bly
I looked at him. He was like his clothes were in tatters. He couldn’t afford that car. But he said yes because he wasn’t going to admit to the rest of us. We couldn’t. And then the guy next to him who was wearing like a hobo outfit said, oh, I’d buy that car. So, you know, it doesn’t tell you anything.

00:20:14:13 – 00:20:35:03
Robert Bly
But what focus groups did do to teach you about. And it’s the same with talking to customers, not what they’ll buy, but how they talk about the products category and how they talk about the the problems they have. There’s a famous story, that there was a, you may not remember this. I don’t think you’re old enough.

00:20:35:04 – 00:20:58:20
Robert Bly
There was a TV commercial for Wesson oil with a woman named Florence Henderson, an actress. And it was. And it was about Wesson ality. And the commercial showed that if you cook your fried chicken and Wesson oil in a pan and then put it back in the cup, you got all the oil back except one teaspoon. It didn’t it didn’t absorb the oil.

00:20:58:20 – 00:21:17:05
Robert Bly
It cooked, it didn’t absorb it. And where did the copywriter get that? From a focus group. Somewhat. Not for someone had just made a comment reading a focus group transcript. And the woman said, and you know what? After I fry the chicken, it doesn’t taste greasy. And I actually noticed they put it back in the cup and it all came back except a little bit.

00:21:17:07 – 00:21:25:12
Robert Bly
So you hear how people think and talk about your product. You won’t get that. You know, that’s something you only get by talking with people generally.

00:21:25:14 – 00:21:48:07
Alex C
Understood? Understood. But there’s a combination of, I guess, understanding the customer, but also predicting if something is going to solve a problem that the customer has, like it’s that kind of combination thing because some of the things like, say for example, the Gary Halbert example from before, right? He found the starving crowd, but they didn’t know they were starving.

00:21:48:09 – 00:22:06:06
Alex C
So it’s almost like kind of knowing like say for example, so for example, Henry Ford. Right. It was the first automobile kind of, for the masses. He didn’t know that. They actually kind of wanted it because I didn’t know yet, but he knew that it solved the problem, but they didn’t know that they had.

00:22:06:06 – 00:22:24:01
Alex C
Right. And so I think it’s a combination of can understanding problems that they already have and predicting the problems that they are not aware of. Yeah. And experimenting I guess like and I think like, especially in the digital space, easier to experiment and the hooks and angles and messages, the main thing,

00:22:24:03 – 00:22:29:12
Robert Bly
How you hit it, you use the term experimenting. I would use the word testing.

00:22:29:14 – 00:22:29:24
Alex C
No, but.

00:22:30:02 – 00:22:59:00
Robert Bly
We always say, can people call me? Hey, I have this idea with this work. I said, you don’t know, I don’t know. We won’t know until we test it. There’s no sense in arguing. Claude Hopkins in scientific advertising said advertising problems and questions are not resolved around sitting around a conference table and arguing. They’re resolved by testing. And back in the day when it was just print AB split, you know, and now it’s multivariate testing.

00:22:59:00 – 00:23:19:16
Robert Bly
So it’s quicker and easier, but it’s the same thing. And the people who are, do the most testing are usually the most successful. That’s why a lot of the big digital marketers, The Motley Fool, for example, is very successful. They have such a huge audience, and they do so much. They test constantly and massively. And that’s the.

00:23:19:18 – 00:23:47:08
Alex C
Only fool has got some good sales copy. Like, I think that’s is one of the only recent examples I can remember where long copy still works. Well, I’m sure there are others, but I’ve noticed that over the years copywriting is still super important, and all of the thinking and all of the, the principles are the same, but the length of copy has shortened and the number catchers seems to have expanded.

00:23:47:10 – 00:24:04:00
Alex C
Is that what you’re saying as well? And how have you seen kind of the copywriting kind of landscape shift over the last 20 or so kind of years since, the advent of the internet and then in the last five years, since all this kind of social media content is really starting to take off here. So how have you seen the market?

00:24:04:00 – 00:24:04:15
Alex C
Kind of.

00:24:04:17 – 00:24:13:06
Robert Bly
Well, that is that is a big question that has a large answer that we could discuss for an hour and 45 minutes and not get through it. But,

00:24:13:08 – 00:24:16:20
Alex C
Let’s give it a go at like the first part of it. Right. Let’s say if we can get a search.

00:24:16:20 – 00:24:38:10
Robert Bly
For is this the reason copy can be shorter on the internet versus print? And back in the old days we would do a direct mail package and we send out, you know, for, let’s say a health product. And it’d be like a longer letter and it’d be 20 pages, because it was one thing. We had to tell them everything we needed to tell them to get them to buy it.

00:24:38:12 – 00:25:02:04
Robert Bly
But now we don’t do that. We can send out an email that just, you know, teases them in a paragraph, and then it gets them to a video sales like so you the copy is broken up into components. So it’s not that there’s necessarily that there’s less copy, although there may be, but it’s divided into pieces and parts versus back in the day it had to be all in one bundle because you only had one shot.

00:25:02:06 – 00:25:08:22
Alex C
So I think that’s a really good perspective. It’s the same amount of copy, but it’s split up over a number of touches potentially. Right.

00:25:08:24 – 00:25:32:15
Robert Bly
Exactly. And that’s very much the case in B2B. You know, people the people can talk about the customer journey, the buyer journey, and, you know, business prospects, especially in B2B at the, you know, the small to medium sized businesses, larger companies, they’re digesting information in bite sized chunks. I’ve read some blog posts, I’ll download a whitepaper, I’ll go on a webinar.

00:25:32:20 – 00:25:44:02
Robert Bly
So it’s just as much information. But instead of having an all in one place, it’s being doled out, being spoon fed to the prospect and bite sized chunks.

00:25:44:04 – 00:25:57:01
Alex C
And is education still the strongest way to communicate through copywriting? Kind of just educating them. And then like, is that the best way to approach it? Still.

00:25:57:03 – 00:26:29:01
Robert Bly
I don’t like to use the word best, but let’s say this education, is incredibly powerful. People want. Yeah. Especially today, we’re we’re we consume information so serious buyers, people who are not just, looking at it for entertainment, but who really have a problem and really need to acquire a product. They do want to be educated. That being said, the, you know, there are other powerful appeals sometimes it’s more not not instead of it’s not either or.

00:26:29:01 – 00:26:49:19
Robert Bly
It’s both also an emotional component because the end of the day education, as good as it is, is often a logical appeal, and emotion always trumps logic. P consumers basically buy based on emotion and then rationalize their buying decision based on logic.

00:26:49:21 – 00:27:01:18
Alex C
So it’s good copy. Then a combination of the two where it’s disguised in education, but it is hitting all of the emotional hot buttons. Is that a kind of good way to think about it?

00:27:01:20 – 00:27:32:11
Robert Bly
Yes. And sometimes we tend more to lead with emotion, but sometimes we do lead with, education information or news information that they don’t know or they should know but don’t know. You can consider news, you know. So, I remember there’s a email, an ad. We use the old term mail order, a brand that ran it years ago, and it was for a, for, for I think it was a salon or a hair product to help give you think her hair and it’s and it was for women.

00:27:32:13 – 00:27:45:24
Robert Bly
And the headline was important news for women with thinning hair. It was news and it ran over and over and over again. So it it was it was education.

00:27:46:01 – 00:28:02:07
Alex C
So there’s a hook in there. There’s understanding, the market awareness and who you’re talking to. There’s calling up prospect and there’s an, a naming the problem. Right. And so and then all of that is in kind of one headline basically. Right.

00:28:02:07 – 00:28:25:08
Robert Bly
But there’s area but there’s multiple approaches. There’s another way is to identify the problem or the prospect herself or himself. And, and like the very famous again, it’s a print magazine ad for years ago. There’s a correspondence course from Writer’s Digest School where the writer’s School on how to become a children’s book author, and the headline was, we are looking for people to write children’s books.

00:28:25:08 – 00:28:47:13
Robert Bly
And and it ran unchanged for decades. And what did I say? Identify what you want it to do, who you are, if you want it. A lot of people crave in the writing sphere. Want to be authors and a lot want to write children’s books. It’s a maniacs. Or that every celebrity today, as a children’s book, you will want to write children’s books.

00:28:47:13 – 00:28:49:23
Robert Bly
And that is what hook them in.

00:28:50:00 – 00:28:56:05
Alex C
So that headline, so let’s call that the control that ran for years and years and years, right?

00:28:56:07 – 00:28:57:05
Robert Bly
Yeah.

00:28:57:07 – 00:29:00:03
Alex C
They would have still been experiment. They were they.

00:29:00:03 – 00:29:00:11
Robert Bly
Didn’t.

00:29:00:12 – 00:29:04:05
Alex C
Know being testing but not being able to beat it. Right.

00:29:04:07 – 00:29:26:07
Robert Bly
Yeah. One of the things I kind of knew them, and I sort of like, didn’t beg them, but I said, you know, this is great. You want me to. I’d love to take a shot at it. But they said nothing. Nothing, you know, has ever beaten it. And, so usually new, more often controls don’t last you especially in the digitally you things move faster.

00:29:26:09 – 00:29:48:13
Robert Bly
You can beat them, you can tweak them. We can try something completely different and you get it. And you get a new headline that works. And you can see a lift of 10%, 50%, 100% or more. You can double the control. But occasionally there are still classic controls that are very, very difficult to beat and that have long lives.

00:29:48:15 – 00:29:54:13
Alex C
There’s so many things to talk about, like like I’ve got, a few things, that I want to cover. I’ve got like the so many areas. I mean, like, I’ve been into.

00:29:54:15 – 00:29:57:06
Robert Bly
I’m not gonna write. I’m yours for as long as you need me.

00:29:57:09 – 00:30:18:21
Alex C
Yeah. Fantastic. I mean, look, I bought every kind of copywriters kind of book ever. As soon as I got into copywriting, I think I got introduced it from Jay Abraham. Because, like, like, he was speaking kind of copywriting. And then I got into kind of Gary Halbert and Gary, Pennsylvania, and John Carlton and like, like kind of, Claude Hopkins and, you know, basically all of kind of the greats.

00:30:18:21 – 00:30:50:19
Alex C
Right. And what’s interesting is that it’s all similar, but there is a difference in how they approach kind of how they write kind of the copy themselves. Right. And I think there’s a process the copywriters kind of go through to produce a kind of winning pace. That’s what is kind of your process of kind of how you go through the construction of the copy to make like, to ensure that it has the highest, chance of beating the control.

00:30:50:21 – 00:31:18:23
Robert Bly
I’ll give this to your listeners and viewers. If they go to bly.com my site and click on methodology, there’s, there’s a link under that pages. Here’s how I write copy. And it’s listed out 123456789. My process for writing copy. But it starts with immersion in research research. And this is said by many people, not just me, is half the job.

00:31:18:24 – 00:31:40:11
Robert Bly
A lot of people say they do research, so they have enough proof because one way you sell things is you have overwhelming proof that your claims are true. That’s one purpose of research, but the other isn’t. That is less well known in doing research is in doing research. You come across selling ideas you would never have even considered, and they may serve the basis of a whole new approach.

00:31:40:11 – 00:32:04:07
Robert Bly
You’re not just trying to prove your point, you’re trying to also find, new ideas, new selling ideas. And and so everything, you know, someone might say, hey, I did a survey of the top copywriters or a lot of copywriters. How much of the time in writing a promotion, a winning promotion is spent research and the I think it was between 25% and 50%.

00:32:04:09 – 00:32:12:08
Robert Bly
And certainly that’s the case with me. You know, 25 to 50% of my time is research and reading. And,

00:32:12:10 – 00:32:15:07
Alex C
And what are you researching and what are you reading?

00:32:15:09 – 00:32:50:01
Robert Bly
You’re researching, let’s let’s say you’re writing a promotion. You are researching the market. You know, for example, you’re researching the product. You know, if, if, if I have to write in direct mail or now it’s a print, it’s an online promotion for, let’s say, a, an investment newsletter. I tell the client semi the last 6 to 12 months of issues, and I go through that, I print it out even though I have it electronically, I print it out, I put it in huge notebooks.

00:32:50:01 – 00:33:16:00
Robert Bly
I can pull them out and show them to you. And, which I’ve done with clients, because I want them to see what I do. And I go through that, print out, and I, I have my trusty yellow highlighter, and, and I, I go through it and again, sometimes the selling idea for a, let’s say, a monthly newsletter on investments or health or Mad Business Management is in the April issue on page seven.

00:33:16:02 – 00:33:33:13
Robert Bly
But you wouldn’t know that unless you dug into it. So the one of the biggest flaws of of I don’t want to say unsuccessful about, but copywriters who are not really dedicated to making it work is they don’t do enough research. A shortcut that process.

00:33:33:15 – 00:33:51:02
Alex C
Understand and I would agree with that 100%, because if you do the research, then you understand the pain points, the hooks, the angles, there’s perspectives that kind of haven’t been considered yet. There’s also kind of some testimonials which you could kind of start to pull out like a headline for different ads or kind of the basis of like, like a specific hook.

00:33:51:02 – 00:34:00:04
Alex C
So, yeah, for sure. You know, spending time on kind of research helps a lot. Have you been using kind of ChatGPT to support the research kind of process?

00:34:00:06 – 00:34:29:08
Robert Bly
Because another two hour conversation and I actually I actually have two books coming out about writing with that, and I and I’m doing publishers. But the answer is, well, I personally never use ChatGPT to write copy. I do use it in several ways to do research for me, the number and there’s several. But the number one way is when I’m writing a financial promotion, the one of the challenges is can we come up with a big idea for that, for financial promotion?

00:34:29:13 – 00:34:57:22
Robert Bly
Like I saw one recently from a company I didn’t know and they and they said, what was it? They said, I proof your stock portfolio with these with the blue collar mutual fund. And their idea was that if you invest in companies that are that, that that are not impacted by AI, their workers are operate drill presses, they’re dentists or whatever, that I can’t take over for them.

00:34:57:24 – 00:35:16:23
Robert Bly
You they’re a good company to invest in. You should own their stock. And that’s a what we call a big idea. And so if I have a big idea, let’s say I decide I’m making this up. It’s not a good one, not a real one. I said, what would happen if tomorrow Ukraine, you know, send a bomb over Russia and blew up their gas pipelines exiting the country?

00:35:16:24 – 00:35:43:23
Robert Bly
What would happen to us, the stock, the US stock market, the global economy? Is that enough? Is that a big idea for writing a package? So I’ll ask ChatGPT to vet a call it vetting vet thing. Is that a good idea? ChatGPT what would happen if that happened? In fact, he comes up with a list of eight or 9 or 10 coherent points, and I say it doesn’t have to have the details, but it’s just because it didn’t make sense.

00:35:44:03 – 00:36:03:10
Robert Bly
Then I say, I think I could build a package around this, but on the other hand, he waffles and it says, well, it’s not real, you know? Then I don’t. So that’s my number one use of ChatGPT right now is what I call big, big, big idea, big promotional idea vetting. I do use it for other things, but that’s my number one right now.

00:36:03:12 – 00:36:29:14
Alex C
Yeah, I think for us, us, we use it to kind of improve. Obviously all of the reviews of a specific, a product, you kind of like kind of all the whitepapers or the information, kind of the, that, client send us a sales script, everything. We just put it, into ChatGPT and just start to interrogate the data through ChatGPT, because it can just consume all this information.

00:36:29:14 – 00:36:57:21
Alex C
And through that, the, I think I find with ChatGPT, it’s all about kind of underst it’s actually kind of knowing the question to ask, and that’s what experience kind of, that’s how experience helps. Right? Because experience people, they, they ask significantly better questions. Right. And I think the question is half the thing. And so the question what you would ask is, is far superior than the question that someone who’s just starting out in copywriting is going to ask.

00:36:57:21 – 00:37:17:01
Alex C
Right? It’s still ChatGPT. It’s still, enormously powerful, but it’s only as powerful as the person is using it. And if you’re an expert and if you know kind of how to interrogate it, you get far superior kind of outcomes and kind of research from it. Yes. We use that as well, just for the research process and for the brainstorming process.

00:37:17:01 – 00:37:28:04
Alex C
And then, we extract it from there. Once we have the big idea, how do you go about the construction of the piece itself?

00:37:28:06 – 00:37:48:21
Robert Bly
Here’s what I do. If I feel that the big idea is viable, I then do what we talked about earlier. I do intensive research. I say, okay, this is the direction we’re going to try. I do intensive research on all the points I can. I can go into details, but what how can I get proof and backup of all these ideas and claims?

00:37:48:23 – 00:38:11:10
Robert Bly
You know, the ChatGPT says, you know, if we blew up the Russian gas pipeline, you know, Chicago, Illinois would go dark in two days. You know, I, I find all the proof of everything that it says. So then I have my information and then, what I like to start with is headlines. Can I come up with some?

00:38:11:10 – 00:38:31:11
Robert Bly
Really? I hate to use the term because it’s so corny, but people like killer headlines. Can you write a killer headline? But I do, yeah. I try to come up with great headlines and lots of them. And I look at them. And then I have, an assistant. I write all my own copy, but I have people, you know, a few assistants, and I give it to one of them.

00:38:31:11 – 00:38:47:00
Robert Bly
Her name is Elise. I say, here are the headlines. What do you think of this? And then I show it to, you know, I have a couple of virtual assistants. I might show it to someone else, and then I’ll take the top three. I’ll say the client. Here’s what I’ve come up with for headlines. Here’s 3 to 5.

00:38:47:04 – 00:39:01:11
Robert Bly
And we like the first one. And with a client usually they say, yeah, I, I think you’ve got it. Let’s, let’s blow that out and expand that out. Or how about combining number four and number six instead. So I try to nail the headline down first.

00:39:01:13 – 00:39:22:21
Alex C
Then when you’re doing headlines so just quickly, when you’re doing headlines, the headline also has the big idea, which is why it needs to go to the client to confirm it. Right. Because you’re kind of introducing a new product sometimes, or a new angle for them to, to construct something that can fit. The big idea is that right?

00:39:22:23 – 00:39:41:23
Robert Bly
Simple answer to that is yes. It may not always explicitly sum up so that the big idea pops out, but it’s in there and it. And so yes, I want you to buy in. I want my client because I’m freelance. So I’m not the boss. They are. I want them to buy into it. I said, here’s my approach to doing this.

00:39:42:00 – 00:40:02:18
Robert Bly
And if once they pick a headline and say, yeah, we like that approach, I write the lead. I wrote one page of the copy for the sales letter or a landing page, sales page, whatever it is a video sales, VSL video sales letter. I write, you know, a few hundred words of copy. I say, here’s how, here’s the headline, here’s the lead.

00:40:02:20 – 00:40:10:17
Robert Bly
And when they buy into that and we we kick it around and we nail it down tight, then we go to the rest of the piece.

00:40:10:19 – 00:40:15:05
Alex C
And then how much time is spent on the rest of the piece compared to the headline?

00:40:15:07 – 00:40:39:04
Robert Bly
I would say, the way I kind of break it up is it’s a 25 to 50% on the research. You know, then to write the, the, headline the lead and the first draft, you know, is it again, like, you know, another 25 or 30 or 40% and then the rest is spent, polishing, fine tuning and and revising.

00:40:39:06 – 00:40:58:08
Alex C
I know this is a conversation about copywriting. How does the design impact the copywriting? That’s like, the front covers of the tabloids, right? Or the layout of, like, of course, the direct mail page. Right. I actually kind of or actually kind of getting them just to open kind of the envelope. Right. But that’s a part of it too, right?

00:40:58:08 – 00:41:11:21
Alex C
Because, because if they don’t open the envelope, they can’t say the copyright. So how important is the design that’s around the copy that you provide a client like, like in the performance of that control of a TV?

00:41:11:23 – 00:41:35:14
Robert Bly
Yeah. Me being an old school copywriter, we always said, and back in the direct mail days, I feel like I’m ancient, but back in the direct mail days that, you know, the the copy is king. Copy drives it. The design supports the copy. And the best graphic designers I work with, there’s a I work with a number of them, but the best ones press 2 or 3 who are my regular go tos.

00:41:35:16 – 00:42:00:01
Robert Bly
They agree with this. They say our job is to support your copy. So, I, you know, I read the copy. I don’t do a layout of it. Usually, if I need a specific, layout of a page, I might do a, a rough sketch. I don’t design it, but I’ll do a rough sketch. I’ll. I’ll choose headline and subhead at typefaces so you can see clearly what elements have to be emphasized.

00:42:00:01 – 00:42:26:00
Robert Bly
I’ll put boxes around things, I put highlighting, but I don’t do a final design. And I say to my clients, your next step is either you have your staff or your favorite freelancer, independent graphic designer or digital agency design it. Or if you want us to, I’ll refer you to my top designer. I have several, but I have one that I work with almost all the time and she and she will do it.

00:42:26:02 – 00:42:40:13
Robert Bly
So after the copy is approved, she then sets it into and we did one that we’re doing one of these right today with a series of letters for an attorney. I do a lot of lawyer letters, for, you know, like to get you at a drunk driving.

00:42:40:15 – 00:42:42:00
Alex C
Yeah. A DUI.

00:42:42:02 – 00:43:01:14
Robert Bly
Yeah. Yeah, DUI, that kind of thing. And so then it goes to the designer, and she designs it, shows it to me first, and I say, yes, I like that. Or this is good. Why don’t you underline that or whatever? And then when I say, okay, we show the whole thing to the client and then they give it their the once over and then we’re good to go.

00:43:01:16 – 00:43:09:07
Alex C
When you look at the design that’s come back from the design of the space on the copy, which you’ve sent them inside of a Google doc or something like that. Right. Like it’s just a but I.

00:43:09:07 – 00:43:12:20
Robert Bly
Never use Google Docs. I write them don’t say Google the.

00:43:12:21 – 00:43:30:00
Alex C
What, but okay, I like Google Docs because it’s always on. I always thought you had it. Yeah, yeah, fine. It’s a personal thing as well. But yeah. But okay, cool. So they get kind of the word document that is on it. And then when they come back. Yes. What are some of the things which you which you don’t like to see that you tell them.

00:43:30:00 – 00:43:51:03
Alex C
No, no, no, fix that. And like, how do you look at it, you know, to make sure that the copy is the focus, not the design. Because sometimes I’ve noticed that the designers I can’t help but design and it’s hard to find a designer. It can be simple and just kind of focus on the copy. Yeah, but what do you look at just when a landing page come back, a sales letter comes back.

00:43:51:05 – 00:44:10:21
Robert Bly
But I used to be a problem for me. But it’s not anymore because I only work with Lori and a couple of other designers who are very experienced direct response designers for print and digital, and it comes back the way I would expect and they know what I want and they know what to do. And, you know, often they know what how to design it better than I do.

00:44:11:01 – 00:44:28:06
Robert Bly
The place that was sometimes a problem is if, I hand over the copy to a client and they say we’re going to design it in-house or have our designer do it, and I don’t have a choice, so I or they use and then I look at it normally that’s not a problem but has happened from time to time.

00:44:28:06 – 00:44:39:13
Robert Bly
It comes back and I say, you know, you know, this doesn’t work. And here’s what you here’s, you know, it’s not I’m not the boss. It’s up to them. But I say, here’s what I strongly suggest that you consider redoing.

00:44:39:15 – 00:44:55:23
Alex C
Yeah. Right. And and just for the audience, like a lot of these old school copywriters started, started in the direct mail, including who was the guy from like the early 1900s. I’ve got his book somewhere. It was like one of the first. And he would do.

00:44:56:00 – 00:44:59:04
Robert Bly
Well, there’s, there’s, Robert Collier.

00:44:59:06 – 00:45:00:17
Alex C
A Robert Collier,

00:45:00:19 – 00:45:02:02
Robert Bly
Robert.

00:45:02:04 – 00:45:19:21
Alex C
Yeah. And there was another one that was really hit. But this has been going on for over 100 years. Right. And the majority of the time. Yeah. And so copywriting has been around since there’s been, the print publications. Is that right? Yeah. So since it’s been in magazines. Oh, newspapers.

00:45:19:23 – 00:45:42:17
Robert Bly
Yeah. I mean, yes. Really started advertising originally started in, in the colonies and in America with old newspapers. In fact, the, the one of the funny stories I read is Albert Einstein. Before he came up with the theory of relativity, earn money as a tutor, and he got business with newspaper advertising for free, as offer was a free lesson.

00:45:42:19 – 00:45:44:11
Robert Bly
So this has been a.

00:45:44:13 – 00:46:05:10
Alex C
It’s been around for quite a while and, just for the younger people, who are listening, just imagine like, so these days, it’s fun to make an ad, upload it onto meta and see how it goes. But in, but before the internet, you would have to get the writing done. It have to go into kind of the publications like that.

00:46:05:12 – 00:46:29:14
Alex C
Probably have to wait, sometimes up to eight or so kind of weeks. It would then kind of go out like, and so like, like you can’t make mistakes in that scenario. Right? Like the pressure is so high to make it hit right. And so when you want to learn about kind of copywriters and kind of copywriting start ups, that was the old school guys because they had to nail it.

00:46:29:16 – 00:46:36:09
Alex C
The first time, because the production after the copy was constructed was so big. Right.

00:46:36:11 – 00:47:00:03
Robert Bly
They had to nail it for two reasons. First, because it was expensive, as you said. But secondly, because they had to get it right the first time, but secondly, because it cost a lot of money. If you had a direct mail test, even a small one, and it failed, you’re $25,000 in the hole. But if you put up a, you know, a Facebook ad and it doesn’t work, you tested for $1,000, a $100 a day for a few days.

00:47:00:09 – 00:47:02:12
Robert Bly
You’re not. You haven’t lost much. So we have 20.

00:47:02:12 – 00:47:10:21
Alex C
$5,000 in, like, the 70s in the 80s in the seven in the 60s. Right. So that was worth a lot more than it is today as well with inflation.

00:47:10:23 – 00:47:22:16
Robert Bly
Yeah. Ken McCarthy, who’s sort of sort of like the godfather of of doing direct marketing on the internet, you know, he said we knew more because we it cost less money.

00:47:22:18 – 00:47:37:14
Alex C
I remember I was first starting out, I think it was in the late 90s, and I did a direct mail piece and I got like one client from it. But I remember I was like, like I had to lick all the envelopes and I was doing it like super cheap. And it was still looks like it was still thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars like.

00:47:37:14 – 00:47:40:05
Alex C
And I was, you know, just like, essentially I kind.

00:47:40:07 – 00:47:43:24
Robert Bly
Of I did I did the same thing. I did this.

00:47:44:01 – 00:48:00:15
Alex C
And I remember it was so it was so nerve wracking just, to construct a headline because like, at the time I do the headline, I did the very best headline I can, and then I have to make a decision. That’s the headline I’m going to go with. And then I did the copy. That’s the copy. And then I have to pick a font.

00:48:00:20 – 00:48:17:11
Alex C
That’s the font. And then like kind of the color of the paper and then the color and then like the stamp selection and then like the name and email like, like I kind of handwritten, handwriting because I thought that would have like a hyphen open. Right, right. And there was, there was so much effort just to send the one piece.

00:48:17:13 – 00:48:41:15
Alex C
Right. And I think that having that experience in some way shows you how in how much time that, you should be putting into these things. Right? Because I think this kind of ability to launch things fast, everyone thinks that they’re a copywriter now, and they go, and they’ll go into ChatGPT and they’ll just ask it like, like if you like a couple of kind of prompts.

00:48:41:17 – 00:48:58:00
Alex C
And that’s not the process, right? The process is like, you almost need to think about it like the old school days is where you want to spend more time and just get more winners, right? Because every time that kind of a person wants to put something up and it fails, that cost you money and it’s opportunity cost and so on.

00:48:58:00 – 00:49:06:21
Alex C
But if you put a little bit more time in the preparation, well, a lot more time in the preparation, the performance is better. Yes. What do you think of that kind of whole perspective?

00:49:06:21 – 00:49:28:13
Robert Bly
Oh, I agree with you. One of the things I did besides direct mail back in the 80s, because I have my engineering background, I wrote a lot of, slick color sales brochures for industrial companies, chemical companies, and we agonized over it. Now, if someone’s writing a page on a website page on chemical X, they don’t agonize over it because I know they can always, you know, change it.

00:49:28:15 – 00:49:47:22
Robert Bly
But if we were doing industrial brochures, like I could come at a chemical company that made industrial gases, we would do the brochure. They print 3000 copies of them. It wasn’t print on demand, it was regular printing, and it was expensive. Once we did that, we’re going to have to live with those for 1 to 2 and a half years before it’s time to reprint.

00:49:47:24 – 00:49:54:12
Robert Bly
You had to be. You had to be pristine. You had to be careful. You had to do it right.

00:49:54:14 – 00:50:13:17
Alex C
And so, like, I kind of, so I’m kind of, I’m speaking about this point because there’s a lot of copywriters out there that are listening right now, and just like they just spend more time on the research because, like, it’s just such an important kind of area. How does somebody become a great copywriter these days?

00:50:13:19 – 00:50:15:09
Robert Bly
I get asked this all the time.

00:50:15:09 – 00:50:17:21
Alex C
Yeah, I know, but I have to ask you on that.

00:50:17:23 – 00:50:43:09
Robert Bly
On this. There are there are only there are a number of ways, but there’s really only three. There’s two primary ways to become a great writer copy or anything else. And then there’s a couple of ancillary. Number one is I tell people if you want to be let’s say copy also copy, but it’s it could be any kind of writing if you’re if you’re going to want to be a great writer, let’s say writing, you want to be a great writer, write every day.

00:50:43:11 – 00:50:49:18
Robert Bly
The more you write, the better you get. You know Malcolm Gladwell’s theory? About 1000 hours.

00:50:49:20 – 00:50:52:04
Alex C
1000 hours, wasn’t it about 10,000 out?

00:50:52:09 – 00:50:58:08
Robert Bly
That wasn’t 1000 hours. Gets you decent. 10,000, he said, get you really, really good.

00:50:58:10 – 00:51:00:14
Alex C
Okay, so 1000 hours is good to start with.

00:51:00:14 – 00:51:02:23
Robert Bly
Been good to start with. So what’s that.

00:51:03:00 – 00:51:09:03
Alex C
160 hours a month full time? In 2000, what’s like like seven months full time. Yeah. Yeah.

00:51:09:09 – 00:51:17:20
Robert Bly
And but most people don’t, you know, when you’re writing full time, you’re not writing 12 hours, eight hours a day. So it’s takes a lot of writing.

00:51:17:20 – 00:51:18:18
Alex C
Writing for a.

00:51:18:20 – 00:51:19:19
Robert Bly
Writing, not working.

00:51:20:00 – 00:51:22:03
Alex C
Not researching, writing.

00:51:22:05 – 00:51:23:19
Robert Bly
Or researching can be considered part of.

00:51:23:21 – 00:51:26:07
Alex C
Okay. So that’s included in that. Okay. Good. Yes. Yeah.

00:51:26:08 – 00:51:47:14
Robert Bly
But so so you have so I tell people to the best two ways. You write a lot. And I tell people right. Every day I write every day of the year. And number two is read a lot. And in terms of copy, well, for copywriting you want to read everything, but you certainly want to read a lot of your copy.

00:51:47:16 – 00:52:07:08
Robert Bly
You know, it’s amazing. I was talking with a health copywriter and I who’s very experienced, I’d say, did you see this promotion that this company is doing in this style with these emails and landing pages? She goes, oh, I haven’t heard of that. I said, how could you not? There are major, you should be on their list. I was amazed and I sent them to her and she said, oh, this is brilliant.

00:52:07:10 – 00:52:26:10
Robert Bly
You should know this already. I was nicer about it, that, that and that. But, you know, so you read a lot, you recopy you read. I read all the time. You read books, you read and people say one thing that bothers me. Most people say, what’s the last business book you read? Don’t just read business books. Read everything.

00:52:26:12 – 00:52:51:12
Robert Bly
If you’re a copywriter and you don’t read fiction, you’re missing the boat because fiction tells you how people think and feel and speak. So I am. I am constantly reading, I’m constantly writing, and then those are the major ones. Read. Write every day. Read all the time. And the third one is study copywriting. Become a student of copyright.

00:52:51:12 – 00:53:14:23
Robert Bly
I don’t mean just reading copy you get, but take a course today. That’s the one advantage people really do have today. The the there’s so much more education out there, more easily accessible. Now the negative, the downside a lot of it is very questionable quality or just. But before it wasn’t that easy to get education. You mentioned the classic books that you bought and read.

00:53:15:00 – 00:53:37:07
Robert Bly
When I got started as a copywriter in the late 70s, early 80s, and I moved to New York City in the early 80s, I would take the bus down to the used bookstores, the strand and so forth, and I look in the business section, and one day I remember I went there and I found an original hardcover copy, 1920 Scientific advertising by Claude Hopkins.

00:53:37:09 – 00:53:53:15
Robert Bly
I clutch it like it was, like it was a baby. And I got on the bus and I went home and I locked myself in my apartment, and I read it, you know, and it was like, got. I was like, I found treasure. Now you can download it for free online. But and there’s education of it widely available.

00:53:53:15 – 00:54:09:20
Robert Bly
When I started the, I took a course in copywriting in Direct response copywriting at New York University with a guy named Milt Pearce, who became one of my mentors and a good friend. And I said, Thank God I live in New York City because you couldn’t get those courses.

00:54:09:22 – 00:54:27:14
Alex C
I remember those days as well. Like, like even just to find information that was actually kind of helpful was fun. And then and then especially about kind of copywriting, it was such a, it was such a niche industry where the people who were good were just doing the work, and they weren’t talking about the work. Right.

00:54:27:14 – 00:54:48:06
Alex C
And so there was no one really educating at a copyright, like there was only if you have a history that will kind of standouts. And and so that was really hard. And I think these days everyone just thinks they know copywriting, but they haven’t really done the work yet. Right. And so speaking of the work and speaking of understanding copywriting, who would you say?

00:54:48:08 – 00:55:04:16
Alex C
Critical role and authors or copywriters, that, people should be consuming their books. Yeah. So from, you know, yeah, from all the way back when. Yeah. So I say I like. All right. Cool. So these are ones that everyone who wants to write amazing copy should read.

00:55:04:18 – 00:55:10:08
Robert Bly
Well, I do have lists on my website and I can point you to those later, but. Or send you a link. But.

00:55:10:10 – 00:55:13:16
Alex C
And I’ll link to those in the show notes as well. By the way, just for everyone who’s listening to.

00:55:13:18 – 00:55:37:21
Robert Bly
A few links, but basically of the contemporary ones I do like, and I become friendly with a younger guy named Ben Settle. I don’t know if you know him. He he’s very good, and he has a completely different approach to copywriting than I do, but, I like him. John Carlton is still active, in in health copywriting.

00:55:37:23 – 00:56:02:24
Robert Bly
The Queen I don’t maybe it’s too sexist to say that the princess, the ruler is Carlene and Glade Cole. These people are all friends of mine, and she’s terrific. And she’s. I think, one of the best health copywriters out there in financial copywriting. Subscribe to John Ford’s, newsletter, the Copywriters Roundtable. He writes a lot for Guru, and and he’s and he’s very good.

00:56:03:01 – 00:56:13:10
Robert Bly
You’re making me and I gotta put up also on my site, a page that updates this. And I’ll. When I do that, I’ll also send you a link to that. But those are some of the ones that you should read.

00:56:13:12 – 00:56:17:15
Alex C
And they’ve got some books have they. They got books that they just got. Copy.

00:56:17:17 – 00:56:40:24
Robert Bly
Arlene and Billy. Carlene Angley Cole has a couple of books that are that are good. John Ford, I think. Yes. He has one book that he wrote with Mark Ford of Agoura. It’s called I think now I can’t remember, but look at John Ford. Ford D he has a book. There are,

00:56:41:01 – 00:56:47:12
Alex C
So is it still worth kind of, consuming some of the old copywriters these days, or is it just better to do it? Actually, you.

00:56:47:14 – 00:56:56:04
Robert Bly
Know, the old ones are better. I’m going to be point blank about that. The great classic works. If I was doing them, I could not rattle off a list very quickly. Yeah, yeah.

00:56:56:04 – 00:56:58:04
Alex C
Plays like like if you could just share some of the top.

00:56:58:06 – 00:56:58:17
Robert Bly
I’ll do a.

00:56:58:17 – 00:56:59:15
Alex C
Few ones.

00:56:59:17 – 00:57:33:22
Robert Bly
And you probably have read a lot of these. You have to read or you should read Claude Hopkins Scientific Advertising. You should read Ogilvy on Advertising by David Ogilvy, and you should be anything by Vic Schwab s c h w c h w a a a a b Vic Schwab. I forget the title. Yes. Something advertising. You should, you should read, John cable’s, his stuff.

00:57:33:24 – 00:57:42:19
Robert Bly
Rosser. Reeves. He wrote a book called Reality and Advertising. That is an absolute classic. And those are those are a few of them.

00:57:42:21 – 00:57:44:13
Alex C
Yeah, I would say that. Yeah. As well.

00:57:44:14 – 00:58:01:12
Robert Bly
Yeah. If you going I’ll send you these list later, but the links later. But I have a list on my site. If you go to the articles page you’ll find is an article, two articles, the ten classic copywriting books I think you should read, and ten more contemporary copywriting books I think you should read.

00:58:01:14 – 00:58:20:22
Alex C
Perfect. How do you find a great copywriter? If you want to work with one and I know they could contact you for sure. I mean, they’re in the finance space and they have the money for it, but like this for, like the general person, right? Like who’s going to Upwork and posting stuff on all these kind of, the freelancer sites.

00:58:20:22 – 00:58:28:16
Alex C
How do you, what advice would you give people to assess if someone’s a copywriter, if they need to hire someone, if they, for example.

00:58:28:16 – 00:58:49:10
Robert Bly
Problem with with today it’s it’s easy to find a copywriter. There are many more copywriters than there used to be when I started. The problem, though, is you go to a place like Upwork, you know, I don’t want to make an overly broad statement. Fiber and Upwork, I think, is not, you know, is not the way to do it.

00:58:49:12 – 00:59:05:19
Robert Bly
I ask people, what if? Well, first of all, people can ask me, I’m I’m not really that available anymore. I’ve got my clients and I’m not looking for more. But if someone says, Bob, I need someone to write, and they probably can do the same with you, I’m thinking. But, you know, Bob, I need someone to write a health promotion.

00:59:06:00 – 00:59:32:22
Robert Bly
To write it, to write an ad on, exercise equipment. I’ll send them. I’ll send them, some recommendations. And I’ll also send you a list I keep hidden on my site. It’s not on a first or second level page. I keep a directory of some of the copywriters that I do think are good that I like, and I say, here’s some, you know, you can go through them and talk to them and make your own deal and evaluate them.

00:59:32:24 – 00:59:42:07
Alex C
Well, but for people to find other people to assess them. Yes. Is there a way which you would advise someone to assess copywriter if they look kind of looking for someone.

00:59:42:09 – 01:00:14:08
Robert Bly
Yes. A lot of copywriters basically will send you emails saying I am the top email copywriter in the world, so they’re rejected right away because if you were at the top, you wouldn’t say it. The people would be saying it about you. So that’s utter B.S. what you do is you one way we used to go about doing this, we we look at promotions that we thought were really good and we take these promotions working and we’d find out we’d either ask the marketer or we’d say we were getting it in the email or the mail 20 times and must be working.

01:00:14:10 – 01:00:30:07
Robert Bly
And I would approach the marketer directly, say, yeah, I really liked this piece. Did you write this in-house? And if not, who wrote it? We might need you. We might. We might need somebody to write something like that. Would you mind sharing the name? A lot of them. Will some of them want.

01:00:30:09 – 01:00:41:03
Alex C
So you will find a good pace and then contact the company and ask them who’s the person who wrote that is in-house, or is it someone else? And if it’s someone else, that’s someone we could use as well. That what you’re saying?

01:00:41:05 – 01:00:46:22
Robert Bly
Yeah. And half we’ll share with them and will say no, it’s our private resource and half will say, sure, it’s Joe. And if you’re doing.

01:00:46:22 – 01:00:55:05
Alex C
The research and if you’re doing the consumption of all the other information in the market, then you should be able to say some good copy as it comes across and then, well.

01:00:55:05 – 01:01:15:03
Robert Bly
You will you shouldn’t do that. You should be able to you will. And you say, this is good, I like this. And you may go further and say, I’m seeing this again and again so I know it’s working. And then find out contact you go on LinkedIn. You know, let’s say it’s company X. You know go to company X and get the marketing director and say, hey, I was reading your your promotion.

01:01:15:06 – 01:01:26:22
Robert Bly
You keep running it. It must be working. Would you mind letting me share it with me? The name of the. Did you write this yourself? If not, would you mind sharing with me the name of your copywriter? And some will and some link. And all you.

01:01:26:22 – 01:01:28:19
Alex C
Can do is ask and that like that’s.

01:01:28:24 – 01:01:31:00
Robert Bly
The worst thing you can do is not tell you.

01:01:31:02 – 01:01:52:08
Alex C
What I could do is not tell you. And then we’ll copywriters now. Yeah. So I’m sure there’s going to be some copywriters who are listening as well. What advice have you got for them on how they can get clients? I mean, it’s become fantastic, like in an industry, but before they become fantastic in industry, they kind of almost need to have an industry to invest in.

01:01:52:08 – 01:01:55:14
Alex C
Like so what comes first is a like the chicken or the egg, right? Like, so how do you.

01:01:55:14 – 01:02:13:20
Robert Bly
Well, I’m not trying to sell them. You know, normally when you ask someone like me that they say, oh, take my course and it’s a $5,000 course. I have a book that I wrote years ago, it’s old, but oh, it’s a lot of it is still got that valid. It’s called secrets of a Freelance Writer. If you go on Amazon and buy it, it’s only a few bucks and you buy it used.

01:02:13:20 – 01:02:30:06
Robert Bly
I don’t make any money, so there’s no profit motive for me. So that tells you how to get clients. Now the problem with that book is it’s also dated. Everything in there is still valid, but there’s new methods of getting copywriting clients. The main one you hear mentioned is outreach. You know what I mean by outreach.

01:02:30:08 – 01:02:30:14
Alex C
Yeah.

01:02:30:17 – 01:02:56:05
Robert Bly
So I’m probably going to produce some kind of guide on outreach. But basically you go on line and see who you can connect with, who would be a good potential client. And you, as I say, make a connection with them and work that leads, so to speak. Another way to do it is, on on LinkedIn, you know, I mean, I’m not an expert in Lincoln, but I do know how to do all these things.

01:02:56:07 – 01:03:06:21
Robert Bly
And if we had more time, maybe we could do a separate session. Separate session if you want it. But LinkedIn, email outreach, and content marketing.

01:03:06:23 – 01:03:25:08
Alex C
Yeah. And I would say on that point as well, I think what’s interesting about that point is that if you’re not getting responses, you’re probably not as good of a copywriter as what you might think you are because you have done the research and you don’t know how to get the hot button right, and then you’re the same as everyone else, which means that it’s archived immediately, right?

01:03:25:08 – 01:03:35:09
Alex C
So if you want to stand out, the hook has to be good. You need to understand your market. It needs to be short and punchy, and it needs to make it easy to take action. Right.

01:03:35:11 – 01:03:56:04
Robert Bly
I’ll give the I’ll give the number one tip to avoid that on LinkedIn. If you’re reaching out to someone on LinkedIn, don’t start with say, hey, Bob, I do social media. I can help you with your social media. Don’t pitch me. Don’t start the relationship off by pitching. Build a relationship and we can talk about how to do that if you want.

01:03:56:04 – 01:04:18:19
Robert Bly
But for example, if I were to do it for me, I’d say, hey, I got your, I got your, email on, you know, investing is in Elon Musk’s new AI company. Company? I thought that was pretty good. I, you know, if you if I could show you way and then I might say something like, oh, if I could show you ways to improve the metrics.

01:04:18:19 – 01:04:35:09
Robert Bly
Better conversion, more, more subscription sales, would you be interested in taking a look? Or it might say, hey, I do a lot of work in in stocks. I’ve had success with high tech stocks and even AI stocks. May I send you some samples of my work? That’s how I would start off.

01:04:35:11 – 01:04:45:01
Alex C
May I send you some samples of my work? Yeah, sure. I’d love to say the things that someone else is doing in my industry. Right? Like that. That’s the best thing, isn’t it?

01:04:45:03 – 01:05:15:15
Robert Bly
Or if if, you know, if you don’t, even something as simple as, may I send you a free information kit on my copywriting services? And if they say yes, I have a PDF document with it. If you ask me for it, I’ll be happy to send it to you. You can share with people you know if a 15 page PDF that is a package of information about my copywriting services includes a cover letter, client list, testimonials, articles, samples, etc., etc..

01:05:15:17 – 01:05:26:22
Alex C
And every single page I assume on that document has been meticulously copy written and structured well so that it’s all consumable, right? Like it’s like a 15 page sales letter, but it’s not a sales letter.

01:05:26:24 – 01:05:34:00
Robert Bly
Yeah, it’s it’s sort of like that. Although the first 3 or 4 pages actually are, you know, a long copy sales letter, which I’ve always used.

01:05:34:02 – 01:05:47:12
Alex C
Yeah. So, so even long copy. And let’s finish on this point. When do you use long copy? These days. I want scenario this long copy work in today’s world.

01:05:47:14 – 01:06:11:07
Robert Bly
Well, again, I got to send you some links to stuff because there’s an article on my why.com on the articles page on copy links. And I have a tool called the Copy Link Grid. Wendy, use the one copy Wendy. And I use it long copy and basically use short copy when it’s a casual purchase that doesn’t make much of a difference to the person.

01:06:11:09 – 01:06:38:23
Robert Bly
And when there’s no emotion involved, and when there’s not a lot to teach you explain. You use long copy when it’s a when it has an emotional component, when it is, there’s a lot of information that the buyer has that needs to make a decision. So if I’m promoting a dietary supplement for joint pain, that’s going to be long copy because I have to to begin with, I have to describe the ingredients.

01:06:39:00 – 01:07:02:02
Robert Bly
What are the benefits? What are the clinical studies say about it that takes a lot of words. On the other hand, if I’m selling, I’m looking for something over here. If I’m selling this pocket calculator, pocket cow pocket calculator for sale was $20, now $8. You know, you don’t need a lot of copy.

01:07:02:04 – 01:07:03:20
Alex C
Headlines that headline I love it.

01:07:03:20 – 01:07:14:08
Robert Bly
Yeah, yeah. And having having joint pain although I don’t have that particular ailment is it can be an a very emotional thing. But picking out a calculator not so much.

01:07:14:10 – 01:07:39:07
Alex C
Right. Bob, this has been a great conversation. I love it. Like, yeah, I would say like like if somebody ever asked me, what’s my core strength? I would say that I’ve spent so many hours in copywriting that that’s my core skill. And I think that is the skill that any great, amazing or fantastic kind of marketer should be really becoming excellent at, because it’s at the core, of course, everything.

01:07:39:09 – 01:07:58:15
Alex C
Like, I highly recommend the book, the Copywriters Handbook. Like this is something I bought. I have, but, everyone, me, my team, and I just appreciate the conversation today. It’s such a good conversation. I mean, how can people, connect with you?

01:07:58:17 – 01:08:07:19
Robert Bly
The. If they want to hear from me on a regular basis, they should go to my. My last name is Bly. Bly. My website is bly.com. Very easy to remember.

01:08:07:20 – 01:08:09:07
Alex C
Blue.com.

01:08:09:09 – 01:08:12:07
Robert Bly
[email protected] three like you.

01:08:12:07 – 01:08:15:12
Alex C
Got a three letter domain name. First of all, that’s just cool.

01:08:15:16 – 01:08:37:06
Robert Bly
Side note I well, you know what? I was late to the internet, but I was early to reserve the domain name, so I was able to grab it. And you can’t get them anymore, so. But I say go to black.com/reports reports and you can download a library of for my special reports for free. We sell them elsewhere on the site so the $29 each.

01:08:37:07 – 01:08:51:12
Robert Bly
So we sell these for for 116 bucks you can get them free and you can opt into my list. And that’s and you’ll hear from me every week with tips and things that would be useful to you. And you can no cost and you can get. You can unsubscribe at any time.

01:08:51:14 – 01:09:04:23
Alex C
Highly recommended for anyone who wants to be a better marketer, a better copywriter, more successful entrepreneur. Yeah, because kind of copywriting is at the core of everything that we do. Thank you so much for coming on. The podcast is back in conversation, Bob.

01:09:05:00 – 01:09:08:04
Robert Bly
It was a lot of fun, I enjoyed it. Thank you sir.

01:09:08:06 – 01:09:24:07
Alex C
Thanks for listening to the Growth Manifesto podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please give us a five star rating on iTunes. For more episodes, please visit Growth manifesto.com/podcast. And if you need help driving growth for your company, please get in touch with us at Web profits.io.